Dinosaurs

Someone asked how dinosaurs fit in the bible. While I am going to restrict my answer to dinosaurs alone it is obvious that this question pivots on another broader question of evolution

I believe there are two main opinions on this question. We’ll address them separately.

1) Young Earth – dinosaurs must have existed we know this from fossil records and man existed form the beginning of creation so thus they must have coexisted and we might expect a mention or showing in the bible… This is coupled with a few side arguments that explain the disappearance of the dinosaurs later, most commonly it is sited that they didn’t live after the flood.

Evidences in support of this opinion:
a) A plain reading of Genesis with our culture’s understanding of “Day” makes it certainly seem logical – man created in first 7 days… unless dinosaurs died the same day they were created they should coexist!
b) Several passages in the bible describe unknown creatures with characteristics so wild that they might be dinosaurs, here are a short list of them
The Behemoth : Job 40:15-24 (brontosaur)
The Leviathan : Jobe 41:33 and Psalms 104:26 (Kronosaurus)
c) The bible in several places uses the Hebrew word that also means “dragon” and it is often translated differently though. For example in the story of the creation Genesis 1:21 when the NIV mentions “great creatures of the sea” which in the KJV was translated “great whale” is this Hebrew word that is sometimes also translated “dragon”… since the word “dinosaur” certainly wasn’t around then some people suggest this usage should be translated differently,… possibly dinosaur.
d) There is a limited few people who seriously claim that archeological evidence can be found for the existence of various known dinosaurs with well known ancient civilizations, thus proving that man and dinosaur did coexist. Here are two links but I have no idea if this is valid or not!!!!
http://www.rae.org/pteroets.html
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-art.htm

2) Old earth (ie - evolved earth) – this is the bible doesn’t mention dinosaurs because they were mostly extinct by the time man/Adam evolved.

Evidence for this opinion:
a) Scientist of various beliefs, some Christian, other not, down through the history of exploration have almost entirely agreed with the fossil record. While there are limited attempts to say that the majority of the fossil record formed quickly by Noah’s flood – this is suspect since the no plausible explanation of why the massive flood would so neatly lay down layers that contain only specific species of creatures, then another layer with other species, and another layer with different species –so many layers that show a dynamic growth, dying off, growth, dying off… etc. of the species of the world.
b) The descriptions of leviathan in the bible can be matched up with creatures we are familiar with such as the great whales and odd species such as the Oar fish that resemble massive beasts or sea serpents. Whalers for hundreds of years referred to the whales as the leviathans. The massive Nile crocodiles fit the job description of the behemoth possibly.
c) As for the coexistence of dinosaurs and man… that is obvious to modern scientists and the reason why I said earlier that they where “mostly” extinct. Not only do we coexist with their supposed offspring/relatives the birds; alligator, crocodile, caimans, and gavials are most certainly living dinosaurs that have lived almost unchanged for hundres of thousands of years. Though they’re considered reptiles they are certainly odd since they don’t have scales, have four chambered hearts – while all other reptiles have only 3 chambers…etc… they are only placed there in classification cause they don’t fit anywhere else.
d) The extinction of species has been common for thousands of years – according to the fossil record it has been a long time since there was a diversification of species via evolution. So if the bible mentions creatures that are uncommon to us that is certainly possible, but it doesn’t mean we have to assume it is one of the known dinosaurs of the fossil record. It could be any number of creatures that have gone extinct, but are most likely common animals to us that are described in an ancient unlearned language.


Now for my personal opinion. From my reading and education I land on the side of opinion #2. I think that the enormous weight of evidence for an older earth is hard to argue against. It is more likely in my mind that words, literature, and biblical passages do not have to be interpreted in a way that is so drastically antithesis from scientific observation which is in it’s basic framework without any agenda.

Tragedy and pain

Two things I wanted to add/clarify from Sunday morning.
1) I think it was understood where our joy and satisfaction are suppose to come from... but I never remember saying it clearly. Point is: if we trust in the promise to come and are so satisfied with our relationship with Christ... if his promise of peace in our hearts is real... then we find all the joy we need in Christ and the hope of heaven. So we relate to sufferings in the light of a greater happiness.

2) Also I should have guessed that people would suggest that I'd be mad at my dad, but I never think that way. He may have made a sad choice but for me the world around him is the target of my anger, the sin and unjustness that brought about deep depression. If a little girl comes home and says she believes she is fat and ugly... I'd hope we don't get angry at her for what the world has unfortunately forced into her mind. A man who comes to the conclusion that his life is worthless is to be pittied even if he caused other people trouble because of his decision.

This in my opinion is an example of how the futility of life is a means that God uses to make us look to him. If he allowed this world to be full of meaning and purpose we might not look to him, the ultimate glory. But if this world is seemingly pointless, troublesome, futile and purposeless then we have a tendency to look up to him for help. This is what he wants. So my dad has never been the target of my anger... his story is instead a reminder that we grown inwardly and wait in hope for something infinitely greater than this and it makes me say "come lord Jesus, come!"

I'll post a link to a copy of my notes for the talk today and a copy of the sermon I mentioned by John Piper and
more about dinosaurs in the bible this evening here on the blog.

Review of last time; blurb on this time

Hi every one, Here's a quick review of what we talked about last time.

Problem of pain = The world is full of futility, pain, injustice, suffering. If there is a God he must not care, or he is good but not powerful. Either way...it's a problem!

Response 1: Recognition of the problem is evidence for a moral law/God's presence. If there is no God, then pain and suffering are SUPPOSE to happen... all of biological evolution/survival of fittest, etc is built on the competition for resources, struggle for power. So when we say, "that action is wrong!" you are invoking some sort of rule that is not implicit from the natural world..where did you get that rule? (Rom 1:20) (This doesn't even come close to a good recap)

Response 2: The God of Christianity can't be called uncaring, look at all he did to make things better, God in the flesh, died on the cross, taking our shame and sin...etc.

Response 3: Most would agree that at least some pain is "beneficial" such as the soreness of a good work out, or that some pain is "necessary" to bring about a better end, or prevent further pain (childbirth, pain that tells you to stay away). So I'd urge you that it is only a matter of perspective, in a sense, that all pain and suffering even SHOULD be prevented. (this leads to this week)

Now, this week we'll talk more about "how then shall we live" in the face of pain, problems, pesky problems, inconviences, true "suffering" etc.

I'd like people to reflect for a bit before sunday about what causes you the most pain suffering or sadness, no matter how small (actually, smaller can be better cause we can all relate).

Recap of last two (caleb) sundays

I have forgotten to put any followup on my last two sundays.

Several weeks ago we looked at lots of bible passages and verses about parenting. We started with some "scary" verses about how parents are held responsible for their children's behavior and actions. Then I claimed that verses in the bible about parenting seem to fit nicely into two broad categories. About children, and about parents. The about children category of verses contain verses telling children what to do(children obey your parents) and descriptions of wise children (proverbs - a wise son...) . The other category is where we focused and I claimed it could be broken into three sub categories. 1) parents need to discipline/be an authority. 2) Parents need to Teach their children about the Lord, and 3) parents need to be careful not to "exasperate" or drive their children away.

In hind site I was not pleased with my delivering of this discussion because we focused too much on how we discipline and not exasperate instead of focusing on the paucity of instruction we actually have in the bible and what this means for us. To me it means that I have alot of freedom in what/how to parent. Alot of our fears are that we think there is this "right" way to do things and we might be doing it wrong. Well, the bible only tells you to teach, not how. So lets be less fearfull, chose a way of teaching that suites the kiddos and Go!

Then my last sunday we discussed one specific thing about teaching our children the virtues we value as christians - by our own actions. We used the fruits of the spirit as our discussion guide and tried to think of how our actions could/do teach by example love joy peace patients kindness faithfulness gentleness goodness and selfcontrol.

This coming week.... BE EXCITED AND READY TO TALK!
(caleb)